good morning. hard times, but we'll have some happy times here this morning too, i promise. measly growth, spiralling prices for longer and interest rates up again. let me be clear. inflation remains too high. it's ourjob to get it all the way down to the 2% target and have it stay there.

so mortgage costs rise, too, and there's a return of the 100% house loan. recession�*s probably off the table, but making ends meet is tough. people come in and sometimes they mention they've only got so much to spend so, you know, you try and give them the best deal you can. so we have one big question this morning... will it be hard for the country to make a living for years to come? sky—high gas and electriticy prices are part of the problem — the energy secretary, grant shapps, is here. what would labour do differently? johnny reynolds shadow business secretaryjoins us too. and maybe the economy will be turned upside down by robots anyway — tech boss emad mostaque has stopped by.

i think this will be a bigger economic impact than the pandemic. it's up to us to decide the direction. and food prices are part of the pressure. the boss of world food programme — cindy mccain — on why it's a much bigger problem than at our checkouts. we are asking everybody to please support us because people will starve to death if we don't. with us to talk about those pressures and much more too — chef and founder of the restaurant chain wahaca, thomasina miers, on energy prices the boss of octopus energy, greg jackson, and scoop—getter extraordinaire, the guardian's political editor, pippa crerar. morning, morning.

if you're bleary—eyed after eurovision, you are not alone, and we had our own secret reporter there who'll show us what was really going on behind the scenes. laura, it is catherine tate here. i have just finished giving the scores. i don't know if you can hear me or indeed if my dress would be suitable for sunday morning viewing. i think catherine tate is appropriate for any time of the day or week. welcome to you three. let's take a look at the front pages. eurovision is on there with the princess of wales, a piano solo during the titles. the sunday times about the ongoing nurse strike and the sunday telegraph says labour would give eu citizens vote in the election. sunday express, jitters around and says the prime minister

will not budge. the observer says there is some kind of conservative revolt going on. let's get straight into that. paper, what's really going on in the tory party? we are seeing lots ofjitters.— seeing lots of 'itters. that's exactly the _ seeing lots ofjitters. that's exactly the right _ seeing lots ofjitters. that's exactly the right word. - seeing lots ofjitters. that's exactly the right word. the | seeing lots ofjitters. that's - exactly the right word. the local elections were really bad for the conservatives and they performed worst then their worst expectations and labour did conversely better. because of the pomp and ceremony of the weekend it became secondary news, but when mps came back to westminster, all through the week there's been a lot of anxiety about what that means for the future of the party. and a couple of moments where it's erupted. we saw that with the eu law bill earlier this week when party members were not getting rid of as much brexit legislation by the deadline which rishi sunak had set out over the summer campaign. and we saw that over the weekend

with a new group called the democratic conservative organisation which insists it's about restoring power to the party grassroots but also do we want to restore boris johnson to office? they met at the weekend and there were senior conservatives like priti patel and nadine dorries who showed how unhappy some in the party are about the lack of leadership. find the lack of leadership. and there are also jitters — the lack of leadership. and there are also jitters generally - the lack of leadership. and there are also jitters generally about . are also jitters generally about someone what the government is doing on something which traditionally should be very safe ground for a conservative government, how to get growth going. thomasina, you run a big company, huge pressures at the moment but what is it like? the main thin is moment but what is it like? the main thing is staff— moment but what is it like? the main thing is staff and _ moment but what is it like? the main thing is staff and we _ moment but what is it like? the main thing is staff and we don't _ moment but what is it like? the main thing is staff and we don't take - thing is staff and we don't take food seriously and we have a complete shortage of a lack of

cooks. if we are going to treat public health seriously and business, and this amazing hospitality industry that puts so much money in the coffers of the chequers, we need to invest in training of our own people. because so many people went home, both after brexit and after covid, masses of people going back to europe who took the hospitality industry seriously and invested in it. so the hospitality industry seriously and invested in it.— and invested in it. so the labour shortaae and invested in it. so the labour shortage is _ and invested in it. so the labour shortage is very _ and invested in it. so the labour shortage is very real _ and invested in it. so the labour shortage is very real for - and invested in it. so the labour shortage is very real for you. . and invested in it. so the labour i shortage is very real for you. greg, shortage is very realfor you. greg, what about your sector? because the uk has been good about renewable energy in recent years but there's been warnings that its shaky now and lots of projects are being held up. first of all the uk can be proud that may— first of all the uk can be proud that may be 40 to 50% of our energy comes_ that may be 40 to 50% of our energy comes from — that may be 40 to 50% of our energy comes from renewables. we have been a world _ comes from renewables. we have been a world leader and nothing has brought— a world leader and nothing has brought this into sharper focus than the energy— brought this into sharper focus than the energy prices. it was a gas crisis _ the energy prices. it was a gas crisis and _ the energy prices. it was a gas crisis and if— the energy prices. it was a gas crisis and if we had had more home—grown renewable energy, we would _ home—grown renewable energy, we would have — home—grown renewable energy, we

would have been better insulated against _ would have been better insulated against the crisis. it is very positive _ against the crisis. it is very positive that energy is now front and centre of the national debate and centre of the national debate and the _ and centre of the national debate and the question is how we can transform _ and the question is how we can transform a 150—year—old system in the next _ transform a 150—year—old system in the next decade and a half to bring cheaper— the next decade and a half to bring cheaper energy for households, for businesses — cheaper energy for households, for businesses critically needing it, and of— businesses critically needing it, and of course clean energy and finally — and of course clean energy and finally national security. all three of ou, finally national security. all three of you. thank— finally national security. all three of you, thank you _ finally national security. all three of you, thank you very _ finally national security. all three of you, thank you very much - finally national security. all three i of you, thank you very much indeed for now. let's get on with the programme. as pippa was saying, there have been bad tory tempers this week, and another interest rate rise. and look, the prime minister even watched his team, southampton, get relegated from the premiership at st mary's yesterday, when they lost to fulham. so maybe a tricky few days for the prime minister. grant shapps, the energy secretary, is on the pitch for the government this morning. welcome. there have been quite a lot of jitters for the conservatives in the last few days, and repeatedly ministers sit in that chair and say

judge us on ourfive promises ministers sit in that chair and say judge us on our five promises so ministers sit in that chair and say judge us on ourfive promises so i just wanted to bring viewers up—to—date with some of those promises. you said you would have inflation. the bank of england have said it will come down more slowly than expected. you said you will grow the economy, shrank in march and grew by only 0.1% in the first three months of this year. nhs waiting lists are at record levels, higher than they've ever been since records began, and the prime minister always says he wants to stop the boats but 564 people crossed the channeljust last week. so can you be straight with our viewers say keeping these pledges is harder than you thought they would be? , ., ., ., , harder than you thought they would be? ., , ., ., be? good morning. first of all we are committed _ be? good morning. first of all we are committed to _ be? good morning. first of all we are committed to that _ be? good morning. first of all we are committed to that set - be? good morning. first of all we are committed to that set of- be? good morning. first of all we are committed to that set of five l are committed to that set of five pledges. as you say, we will have inflation and you are right the bank of england indicated it is happening is lower than they would like. but they are still saying it is going to happen. but we will grow the economy and against what the bank of england

has said, we thought we would be into a shallow recession, in fact the economy is growing albeit slowly so there is some movement there, and of course we want to reduce debt and make sure we get the nhs waiting lists down. we have put huge resources into that. so we have seen an end of 18 month weights i believe. when it comes to stopping the boats, we are passing the law is to do it, we are working with different countries like albania to make that happen. and i should point out, all the time particularly with stopping the boats, against the opposition who vote against the laws that enable it to happen. the opposition who vote against the laws that enable it to happen.— that enable it to happen. the point i ut to that enable it to happen. the point i put to you — that enable it to happen. the point i put to you this — that enable it to happen. the point i put to you this morning _ that enable it to happen. the point i put to you this morning as - that enable it to happen. the point i put to you this morning as the - i put to you this morning as the promises rishi sunak set out at the beginning of this year are proving rather hard to keep. some people in your party in the last few days have openly shown their frustration that he isn't being bolder, he isn't trying to go further and they really are not convinced he will be able to keep the promises he has made. first

of all i keep the promises he has made. first of all i accept — keep the promises he has made. first of all i accept they _ keep the promises he has made. f "st of all i accept they are difficult and very detailed pledges. these are not vague numbers. we have put numbers to what we promised. it's difficult. secondly... thought it was always going to be difficult and we are still committed absolutely to those pledges. my message is simple this morning to your viewers, is the prime minister set out his five pledges to as you have said have inflation, grow the economy. i won't repeat them all! and he is still absolutely and we are still absolutely and we are still absolutely committed to all of those things, including the nhs waiting lists and stopping the boats. but he is not achieving _ lists and stopping the boats. but he is not achieving them _ lists and stopping the boats. but he is not achieving them on _ lists and stopping the boats. but he is not achieving them on the - lists and stopping the boats. but he is not achieving them on the point l is not achieving them on the point is not achieving them on the point is he promised here are my valves and i will deliver them. on the current trajectory it doesn't look like that'll happen. iltruifizait current trajectory it doesn't look like that'll happen.— like that'll happen. wait till the end of that _ like that'll happen. wait till the end of that trajectory. - like that'll happen. wait till the end of that trajectory. he - like that'll happen. wait till the end of that trajectory. he said l like that'll happen. wait till the i end of that trajectory. he said he would do them during this parliament. on things like growing

economy, it's not runaway growth but we have avoided the recession that even the experts were predicting. so there is some success in there. you are not going _ there is some success in there. you are not going to _ there is some success in there. you are not going to tell our viewers that this growth is success? ida. are not going to tell our viewers that this growth is success? no, but his ledue that this growth is success? no, but his pledge is — that this growth is success? no, but his pledge is to _ that this growth is success? no, but his pledge is to grow _ that this growth is success? no, but his pledge is to grow the _ that this growth is success? no, but his pledge is to grow the economy l his pledge is to grow the economy and we are starting to see it grow. in the next 18 months, we want to see that growth picking up which is why it's important to stick with the course. ., ,, . ., , course. the home secretary priti patel says _ course. the home secretary priti patel says rishi _ course. the home secretary priti patel says rishi sunak _ course. the home secretary priti patel says rishi sunak is - course. the home secretary priti i patel says rishi sunak is overseeing the managed decline of the tory party. there are many people in the conservative ranks who are deeply worried. they have even been holding conferences and public meetings. it is way beyond westminster whispers. there was a big conference yesterday in bournemouth, another coming this week, and all the time there is borisjohnson looming over it. people clapping the prospect of him coming back to save you from what priti patel says is rishi sunak�*s

managed decline. if everything is ok, what are they on about? i managed decline. if everything is ok, what are they on about? 0k, what are they on about? i don't bu that 0k, what are they on about? i don't buy that version _ 0k, what are they on about? i don't buy that version of _ 0k, what are they on about? i don't buy that version of events. - 0k, what are they on about? i don't buy that version of events. this - 0k, what are they on about? i don't buy that version of events. this is l buy that version of events. this is a party that despite having to put up a party that despite having to put up with things like the pandemic, the war in ukraine and all the costs attached to it, is actually buzzing with ideas. we are able to get together and hold conferences and have different ideas come forward, just as happened when i was reselected recently to fight my own seat as the candidate.— seat as the candidate. although former cabinet _ seat as the candidate. although former cabinet ministers - seat as the candidate. although former cabinet ministers in - seat as the candidate. although former cabinet ministers in the | former cabinet ministers in the party are saying the party is in managed decline. lode party are saying the party is in managed decline.— party are saying the party is in managed decline. we are still the -a managed decline. we are still the party coming _ managed decline. we are still the party coming no _ managed decline. we are still the party coming up with _ managed decline. we are still the party coming up with new - managed decline. we are still the party coming up with new ideas . managed decline. we are still the l party coming up with new ideas and division for the united kingdom, and i think that is a good the fact borisjohnson was our prime minister is capped by conservative mps, i served in his cabinet, is not i think a shocking revelation that you seem to suggest it might be. what's

interestin: seem to suggest it might be. what's interesting though, _ seem to suggest it might be. what's interesting though, and _ seem to suggest it might be. what's interesting though, and we - seem to suggest it might be. what's interesting though, and we heard i seem to suggest it might be. what's interesting though, and we heard it| interesting though, and we heard it from the culture secretary lucy frazer last week, is your party got an absolute kicking from the country in the set of elections last week losing more than 1000 seats and essentially you are saying stay the course, don't change anything, business as usual.— course, don't change anything, business as usual. that's not quite riuht. business as usual. that's not quite right- first — business as usual. that's not quite right- first of _ business as usual. that's not quite right. first of all _ business as usual. that's not quite right. first of all you _ business as usual. that's not quite right. first of all you are _ business as usual. that's not quite right. first of all you are right, - right. first of all you are right, this was a disappointing set of elections for us clearly, on the other hand it was the first opportunity people have had since all the shenanigans of last summer to go to the polls and vote in a ballot box and in a sense express their displeasure with what had happened. imagine if that set of elections by the way had been six months ago, they would have been clearly much worse. mr; months ago, they would have been clearly much worse.— clearly much worse. my question is are ou clearly much worse. my question is are you going _ clearly much worse. my question is are you going to — clearly much worse. my question is are you going to change _ clearly much worse. my question is are you going to change anything i are you going to change anything since then? i are you going to change anything since then?— since then? i think what we are auoin to since then? i think what we are going to do _ since then? i think what we are going to do is _ since then? i think what we are going to do is deliver— since then? i think what we are l going to do is deliver specifically on the five pledges which i will resist naming again not to try your patience! but that is what we will do, and actually if you think about

the priorities in this country, these are the things, stopping the boats and getting on top of the nhs waiting lists. they are the priorities when i knock on doors in my constituency and elsewhere, that's what people want to see us do so we will not be diverted from those principles.— so we will not be diverted from those principles. let's talk about our 'ob those principles. let's talk about yourjob as _ those principles. let's talk about yourjob as energy _ those principles. let's talk about yourjob as energy secretary - those principles. let's talk about - yourjob as energy secretary because people need to pay their energy bills. the government has been paying half people's energy bills all winter, but was the payment in march of the last time that will ever happen?— march of the last time that will ever happen? march of the last time that will ever ha en? ., ., ., ever happen? you are right, we have been paying — ever happen? you are right, we have been paying typically _ ever happen? you are right, we have been paying typically have _ ever happen? you are right, we have been paying typically have the - been paying typically have the energy bill for a household and even a business. the problem is it hasn't felt that way, and people will be watching saying you didn't pay half of my bill. that's because the bills would have gone up so much more had it not been for that support. there are still safeguards in place, including the energy price guarantee. but critically, what we are starting to see or have seen on the wholesale price are those energy

prices falling below the cap and getting back to more like what would be normal prices. people haven't seen much of that benefit yet but this summer that should start to feed into people's bills. what feed into people's bills. what ex - erts feed into people's bills. what experts calculate _ feed into people's bills. what experts calculate is _ feed into people's bills. what experts calculate is they - feed into people's bills. what experts calculate is they willl feed into people's bills. what experts calculate is they will still be 50% higher than two years ago. that is not normal, unless what you are saying to people is that there is a new normal and actually we have to accept now that the price of energy is going to be higherfor longer? i energy is going to be higher for loner? �* ., , energy is going to be higher for loner? ., i, . longer? i can't accurately predict exactly where — longer? i can't accurately predict exactly where the _ longer? i can't accurately predict exactly where the energy - longer? i can't accurately predict exactly where the energy price i longer? i can't accurately predict l exactly where the energy price will be but what i can tell you is at its height it was about 600 p per firm for gas. this morning it is 76 p, so we will see the energy prices falling. there is something else the government can do here which is create the energy security we found didn't exist when putin invaded and used energy as a weapon of war and blackmail essentially to get us to

the cheapest electricity wholesale prices in europe and that's where i want to take the uk through our incredible programme of renewables and rebuilding nuclear power. people in that industry have been talking about putting your foot down for a long time. one thing is a social tariff, accepting there will be people who will always struggle. would you consider a social tariff for energy? the would you consider a social tariff for energy?— would you consider a social tariff forener: ? ., . ., ., ., , for energy? the chancellor already announced we _ for energy? the chancellor already announced we look _ for energy? the chancellor already announced we look at _ for energy? the chancellor already announced we look at that. - for energy? the chancellor already announced we look at that. will. for energy? the chancellor already announced we look at that. will he j announced we look at that. will he do it? we had _ announced we look at that. will he do it? we had the _ announced we look at that. will he do it? we had the warm _ announced we look at that. will he do it? we had the warm homes . do it? we had the warm homes discount. _ do it? we had the warm homes discount, that _ do it? we had the warm homes discount, that essentially - do it? we had the warm homes i discount, that essentially provide something of support for people. but i was going to comment actually on what the chief exec of octopus was saying. people don't realise in this country how far we've done with renewables. back in 2010, when this conservative government came to power, only about 7% of our power was renewable. this last 12 months if you take renewable and nuclear, about 57% of our power came from renewables and nuclear. this is a

transition which gives us, britain, the biggest offshore wind farm in the biggest offshore wind farm in the world and the second, and the third, and we are building the fourth. we are doing very well on those things. what i need to see is that come through to mean people's energy prices are cheaper and that come through to mean people�*s energy prices are cheaper and stop us having reliance on the international gas market. in the last six months _ international gas market. in the last six months only _ international gas market. in the last six months only one - international gas market. in the last six months only one wind i last six months only one wind turbine has been started. in 2022, only two onshore wind turbines were started in england. so there had been huge progress but it has slowed right down and you've heard greg say there is a danger renewables are going backwards on your watch. yeah. going backwards on your watch. yeah, i think going backwards on your watch. yeah, i think those — going backwards on your watch. yeah, i think those will— going backwards on your watch. yeah, i think those will be _ going backwards on your watch. yeah, i think those will be wind _ going backwards on your watch. yeah, i think those will be wind farms - i think those will be wind farms rather than individual turbines, but i can tell you not only do we have around 14 gigawatts, this may not mean a huge amount in numbers of wind turbines on shore, we also have more for example solar in the united kingdom and france. even though the

country is geographically half the space and our weather isn't quite as good. so we do very well actually on onshore wind farms, on solar, on offshore. �* . , , offshore. but the recent numbers, i want to bring _ offshore. but the recent numbers, i want to bring in _ offshore. but the recent numbers, i want to bring in greg, _ offshore. but the recent numbers, i want to bring in greg, how- offshore. but the recent numbers, i want to bring in greg, how easy - offshore. but the recent numbers, i want to bring in greg, how easy is l want to bring in greg, how easy is it right now to get things done, to get diggers in the ground and get things built? i get diggers in the ground and get things built?— things built? i think first of all grant is right, _ things built? i think first of all grant is right, the _ things built? i think first of all grant is right, the uk - things built? i think first of all grant is right, the uk can - things built? i think first of all grant is right, the uk can be l things built? i think first of all - grant is right, the uk can be proud of where _ grant is right, the uk can be proud of where we — grant is right, the uk can be proud of where we are. that means we have the hard _ of where we are. that means we have the hard task— of where we are. that means we have the hard task of moving from a position— the hard task of moving from a position where renewables where a minority— position where renewables where a minority of— position where renewables where a minority of energy to the bit where they become the norm and to do that we need _ they become the norm and to do that we need to— they become the norm and to do that we need to unleash tens of billions of dollars— we need to unleash tens of billions of dollars of investment we have available — of dollars of investment we have available to build new generation, but we _ available to build new generation, but we need the grid connections and the planning permission. germany has done something remarkable but also challenging, which is during the gas crisis _ challenging, which is during the gas crisis they— challenging, which is during the gas crisis they built five liquid natural— crisis they built five liquid natural gas terminals and germany has the _ natural gas terminals and germany has the same sort of bureaucratic planning — has the same sort of bureaucratic planning constraints we have but i think— planning constraints we have but i think they— planning constraints we have but i think they treat it as a national emergency and at the same way that in the _

emergency and at the same way that in the pandemic we took a 15 year vaccine _ in the pandemic we took a 15 year vaccine process and did it in a year. _ vaccine process and did it in a year. we _ vaccine process and did it in a year, we need to do the same building — year, we need to do the same building renewables. he year, we need to do the same building renewables. he saying this is a crisis and _ building renewables. he saying this is a crisis and everyone _ building renewables. he saying this is a crisis and everyone agrees - building renewables. he saying this is a crisis and everyone agrees it i is a crisis and everyone agrees it is, you have to get on with it and accelerate it. me is, you have to get on with it and accelerate it.— is, you have to get on with it and accelerate it. we already had the as accelerate it. we already had the gas terminals. — accelerate it. we already had the gas terminals, didn't _ accelerate it. we already had the gas terminals, didn't have - accelerate it. we already had the gas terminals, didn't have to - accelerate it. we already had the l gas terminals, didn't have to build them. , . , gas terminals, didn't have to build them. , ., , .,, gas terminals, didn't have to build them. , ., , , , gas terminals, didn't have to build them. , ., , , them. germany has built hundreds and we've built one. _ them. germany has built hundreds and we've built one. but _ them. germany has built hundreds and we've built one. but germany - them. germany has built hundreds and we've built one. but germany was - we've built one. but germany was nearly 5096 _ we've built one. but germany was nearly 5096 reliant _ we've built one. but germany was nearly 5096 reliant on _ we've built one. but germany was nearly 5096 reliant on gas - we've built one. but germany was nearly 5096 reliant on gas from . nearly 50% reliant on gas from russia, we were 4%, so we had a different energy mix and we do very well with our renewable, entirely world leading. when i go to the g7, for example, of energy ministers, the rest of the g7 looks to britain for its record on renewables. that's a record, that's _ for its record on renewables. that's a record, that's about _ for its record on renewables. that's a record, that's about what - for its record on renewables. that's a record, that's about what next - for its record on renewables. that's| a record, that's about what next and greg is a saying we've got the funds, we are ready to go but we need planning to open up and we need the grid connections and these are things in your in tray as energy secretary. things in your in tray as energy secretary-— things in your in tray as energy secreta . ., �*, ., , , secretary. that's absolutely right so to ut secretary. that's absolutely right so to put this _ secretary. that's absolutely right so to put this into _ secretary. that's absolutely right so to put this into perspective i secretary. that's absolutely right| so to put this into perspective we need to build in terms of connections to our grid in the next

six or seven or eight years as much as we've done for the last three decades. there is a massive challenge. we are almost a victim of our own success in having added so much energy to our grid that we now have this massive challenge, so i've got some very authoritative work going on with this with making legislative changes right now, i have a report coming onto my desk in the next month on the subject of what else we can do to speed up the grid but that is our biggest challenge. every country is going to face it, we are ahead of the game because of the level of renewables we've got coming into our system right now and, by the way, this government is reinvesting in nuclear. i was the first energy secretary for nearly 40 years to put money into nuclear power down that size wealthy. every single nuclear reactor that runs today, bringing us the power you need to rely on, was commissioned under the conservatives and we are back to making sure we bring in more nuclear power. i want that to be about a quarter of the power we have because it's important we have that reliable energy so we

can't be held to ransom by putin or a tyrant in the future. lats can't be held to ransom by putin or a tyrant in the future.— a tyrant in the future. lots of dela s a tyrant in the future. lots of delays in _ a tyrant in the future. lots of delays in the _ a tyrant in the future. lots of delays in the nuclear- a tyrant in the future. lots ofj delays in the nuclear industry a tyrant in the future. lots of - delays in the nuclear industry too but it sounds like you want to change that. grant shapps, thank you, maybe you'll come back and tell us about the report. if you want to share of what grant shapps had to say to us by all means please do, you can always e—mail us. kunz berg grant shapps doesn't want to be replaced by labour, let alone a robot. but if you have been paying attention on sunday mornings — i know you have — we've been talking about changes that are coming from artificial intelligence — as computers that can behave increasingly like humans, and can learn to act without us tapping instructions on a keyboard. one of the most important people you've never heard of, emad mostaque, is the founder of stability ai, one of the leading firms in the field. it's british.

he came in for a visit about what a! could really do. so what artificial intelligence could do, was there's this concept of big data, and so it took all your data and then largely was used to serve you ads. this is a new generation of artificial intelligence called generative ai. the best way to think about it is really talented graduates that occasionally turn a bit funny. so they can paint, they can draw, half of all code now generated is al generated, and they understand concepts, and this was the missing part from the logical big data rational part, this principle—based analysis, and again, when you use this for writing text, for generating images, audio, it feels very human. so let's talk about some of the things it can do and i know when you are trying to explain to people sometimes use images of a labradoodle. so why not? let's show them to the audience if we can. what do these images show, right? because they are not real, are they? they are not real. so this is one of the models we created called stable diffusion. it drove a lot of those avatar apps that you kind of saw. so you would say, i want an image of a labradoodle with a hat saying happy birthday on it with balloons

in the background, and so what we did is we took 100,000 gb of images, 2 billion, and then a supercomputer ten times faster than the fastest computer in the uk and squished it all down into a tiny file that fits on your smartphone that understands all these concepts. so you can say, balloons, things like that, and the next step of the sequence, say make it shaggier, you can say, put it in a stained glass window, now add a cat as a friend. it understands all these concepts in just a few gigabytes. we asked, as you might imagine, for it to create a female presenter of a current affairs show and we'll show people what it came up with. i mean, i suppose it's fun to think about these sorts of images being created and you can put something into a computer and it gives you something that's sort of entertaining and creative in that way. but a lot of people think about al and suggest that actually it might be used, lots and lots on lots of people might lose theirjobs because of it. i mean, you know, she might replace me in a few years,

but this is serious, isn't it? i think it's serious and this is a question that's occurred with every single technological advancement. like, you can take amazing photos on your google pixel or iphone but there's still more photographers employed now than ever. i think that what happens is a lot of tasks become easier because the easiest thing for us to do as humans is talk like we are now. writing is harder, especially writing concisely, really hard. generating images is the hardest of all and that's power points, that image generation and video. there's a whole crew of experts here. but we face a lot of frustration in ourjobs when we try and convey concepts and when we are trying to talk and tell stories and this reduces the bar for that, so we can tell better stories become more productive. we have to be careful and move fast. well, the chief scientific adviser who hasjust stepped down, sir patrick vallance, he suggested that the impact onjobs could be as big as the industrial revolution. that kind of scale of change. is that right? i think this will be a bigger economic impact than the pandemic and it's up to us to decide which direction, because so much of our world is about knowledge work, telling stories, all of finance is basically stories, and these allow us to tell better

stories and absorb stories better. right now we are having this discussion, people are listening to it on tv. what if your siri or your personal assistant could automatically log that, have it relevant to wherever you are, you're an accountant, you know, you work in a hairdresser and capture that information seamlessly. that's where we're moving to. the impact is an arming of really talented grads that will become increasingly specialised at your fingertips. but to a lot of people it might sound frightening, you know, that pace of economic change. you're suggesting something that could be a hit to the economy as big as the pandemic. yes, and it could be for the positive as well as the negative. so on the one hand you had a report coming out by open a! and other academic researchers, that said up to 44% of tasks could be affected because they become incredibly easy. but on the other hand you have goldman sachs saying it could add six or 7% to gdp. why? because you can do more. everyone can do more. they keep theirjobs but they do theirjobs better and it creates abundance. it does though present some other challenges and you were one of the people who was a signatory

to a letter that we talked about on this programme actually about the threats of the most advanced part, the most advanced type of artificial intelligence, sort of spiralling out of control. now, you said it could be an existential threat. what do you mean by that? so, the origin of this is labs such as deep mind which is owned by google and open ai, which is funded by microsoft. they are trying to build artificial general intelligence. a! that can do everything. and that's kind of scary because what if it can do things better than us? if you have a more capable thing than you, what is democracy in that kind of environment? this is a known unknown, because we can't conceive of something more capable than us but we all know people more capable than us, so my personal belief it will be like that movie, her, with scarlettjohansson and joaquim phoenix. humans are a bit boring and it will be, like, goodbye, you're kind of boring. but i could be wrong. if we have agents more capable than us that we can't control that are going across the internet

and are hooked up and they achieve a level of automation, what does that mean? and what could that mean in the worst—case scenario? worst case scenario is that it proliferates and basically it controls humanity. because you could have a million of these things replicating effectively, but we don't know, and those are the worst things because when you're dealing with uncertainty you have to minimise for maximum regret, and you have to take care and we've not seen technologies like this that can proliferate so quickly. but if you are and you have made that decision to have your technology open source, to use the jargon, but if it is all open isn't there a risk therefore that it actually could fall into the wrong hands? isn't it more dangerous to have it all out there? by having it open it means that it's battle tested and stress tested so we see loads of people doing research around how can we improve data sets, how can we build detectors, whereas on the other hand you have these other technologies, complete back boxes that you don't know what happens. that technology itself can be replicated by bad actors or it can just be stolen by bad actors. the operational security is poor and these are just,

they put them on a thumb drive. right now there are two companies in the world that can produce the most advanced level of artificial intelligence, where there could be very serious threats. you're saying that within 12 months that could be everywhere and it could be in the hands of people who wish to do the west harm. it could be a dozen, two dozen, yes, so we need to have some international standards around this and we need to help because a lot of the things around the unpredictability of this is on the outputs. one of the things i think we should implement in the next six or 12 months is don't use the whole internet. use national datasets that are highly curated and reflect the diversity of humanity, as opposed to the western internet as we see it, and these models are more likely to be stable, they are more likely to be aligned with humans. you say it's urgent and you've made that very clear, but do you think that governments are moving fast enough? for me, this is like covid before tom hanks. and then tom hanks just changed it to we need a policy now. i think something will come in the coming months,

i'm not sure what that will be, but i know by next year this technology is everywhere, it's in our phones, it's in our workplaces, and it's moving the nature of society. what could that kind of moment be though? you say when tom hanks caught covid suddenly it was real for everyone, suddenly it was here, and you say there will be some kind of moment like that for al. but what kind of thing could it be, do you think? so, like, last week the republican party had an ai—generated attack ad against president biden. thisjust in. we can now call the 2024 presidential race forjoe biden. and that is something that governments have to respond to. does it worry you though that in america we are seeing political parties starting to use ai? yes, it does, and again i think it's an inevitability. technology is advancing anyway. the question is can we standardise it. this is why i want to put a real focus on the training data. the material that's being put into these supercomputers. exactly, rubbish in, rubbish out. because at the moment they're

training on the whole internet for good and bad and that's why you've got these weird educators. it's why you've got again, you put that presenter in, by default, she is white, you know? but again, that shouldn't be the case forjapan, that shouldn't be the case for india. they should have datasets reflective of their own nations, even britain. when you make something traditionally it is your property, whether it is a song, a painting, a photograph, and your company is being sued by the photo agency getty, a huge company, and it's claiming you've infringed on its photography rights because you scrape the stuff off the internet, put it into your computer and out comes something else. do people have the right to seek redress if these models are using what is theirs? well, i think that's an interesting thing, because what if you have a robot that's walking around and looking at things? like, do you have to close its eyes if it sees anything? and what is the nature of these models? it's an input question and an output question. do you think the government's aim of the uk being an ai superpower — and they've put £900 million

recently into this — is it realistic? i think it is realistic. i think the government is showing a remarkable level of progression versus, you know, regulation first on that, and you've got ourselves and deep mind. you have amazing ai talent in london and hopefully moving across the uk. can we trust you? i think everything is open, right? i think there shouldn't have to be a lack of trust if you build open models and you do it in the open and you should be criticised if you do things wrong and hopefully lauded if you do some things right. and lastly, in ten years' time, will we look back and think, whether it's chatgpt or stability al or deep mind, will they be as big in our lives as the google, the facebook? they'll be bigger. bigger? the entire of humanity are the stories that make us up and the stories we tell each other, and now we can tell better stories and understand better stories. this is why i think patrick vallance is right, it's bigger than the industrial revolution, and it's up to us to decide, do we want a repeat of where we centralised ai and we had few options, or do we want to have a!

that is representative and owned by us? i think it will be a mixture of the two and i hope to help with the latter. emad mostaque, thank you so much for coming to talk to us. it's been a fascinating conversation. my pleasure. thank you. emad mostaque — the boss of a! firm stable diffusion — talking to me there. thomasina, this threat and opportunity from artificial intelligence is already starting to have an impact in business. i think you have found some pictures of a restaurant injapan where robots are already serving people. can you see sometime soon in your businesses this playing a role? brute sometime soon in your businesses this playing a role?— sometime soon in your businesses this playing a role? we have always loved tech and _ this playing a role? we have always loved tech and embraced _ this playing a role? we have always loved tech and embraced it, - this playing a role? we have always loved tech and embraced it, and - loved tech and embraced it, and things like paying bills there is nothing more frustrating than waiting to pay a bill. once you have eaten you want to just leave so things like that are great. things like cooking is very physical, very

tangible, and particularly when you look at healthy food, good cooking, i still think there is a very human role in that and that's what i love about myjob is that it is so physical and in completely cut off from and the web. there is something wonderful about that and wholesome. the route to happiness is to break and share bread. on some sides i think it will be really pivotal, but the actual art and craft of cooking, i'm wondering how much. that human contact. i'm wondering how much. that human contact- it's — i'm wondering how much. that human contact. it's interesting, _ i'm wondering how much. that human contact. it's interesting, he— i'm wondering how much. that human contact. it's interesting, he was - contact. it's interesting, he was talking about humans can do more of the really human stuff and machines will be able to do more of the boring stuff but that has huge risks to jobs, boring stuff but that has huge risks tojobs, right? and in your own company you are already using ai tojobs, right? and in your own company you are already using al to answer customer e—mails? fiur company you are already using al to answer customer e-mails? our company is ve fast answer customer e-mails? our company is very fast growing _ answer customer e-mails? our company is very fast growing and _ answer customer e-mails? our company is very fast growing and we _ answer customer e-mails? our company is very fast growing and we have - is very fast growing and we have created — is very fast growing and we have created 5000 jobs over the last few years _ created 5000 jobs over the last few years but _ created 5000 jobs over the last few years but during the energy crisis we have — years but during the energy crisis we have had to increase the amount of time _ we have had to increase the amount of time and — we have had to increase the amount of time and effort talking to customers to help them through. one

way we _ customers to help them through. one way we have _ customers to help them through. one way we have done that is to augment our team _ way we have done that is to augment our team with al. it's doing the equivalent— our team with al. it's doing the equivalent of 250 people's work at the moment answering e—mails. e-mails — the moment answering e—mails. e—mails that are broadly written by the al _ e—mails that are broadly written by the ai achieve higher satisfaction rating _ the ai achieve higher satisfaction rating than ones written by humans already _ rating than ones written by humans already l'm — rating than ones written by humans already. i'm six weeks ago we weren't— already. i'm six weeks ago we weren't doing any of this so it's now— weren't doing any of this so it's now 34% — weren't doing any of this so it's now 34% of— weren't doing any of this so it's now 34% of all our e—mails in six weeks _ now 34% of all our e—mails in six weeks. in — now 3496 of all our e-mails in six weeks. , , ., now 3496 of all our e-mails in six weeks. , i. ., ., weeks. in six weeks you now have machines doing _ weeks. in six weeks you now have machines doing the _ weeks. in six weeks you now have machines doing the work - weeks. in six weeks you now have machines doing the work of - weeks. in six weeks you now have machines doing the work of the i machines doing the work of the equivalent of 250 people and your customers enjoy getting an e—mail from a machine more than they did from a machine more than they did from customer services representative? from customer services representative ?- from customer services representative? from customer services reresentative? , ., ., representative? yes, and government need to understand _ representative? yes, and government need to understand the _ representative? yes, and government need to understand the pace - representative? yes, and government need to understand the pace that - need to understand the pace that this could — need to understand the pace that this could occur. in the long run, it's approved the economy but for short— it's approved the economy but for short term — it's approved the economy but for short term effects of four groups of people _ short term effects of four groups of people it _ short term effects of four groups of people it can be really destructive. given— people it can be really destructive. given the — people it can be really destructive. given the pace of ai, we need to get onto this _ given the pace of ai, we need to get onto this now. there are other

threats, — onto this now. there are other threats, right? ai getting in the hands _ threats, right? ai getting in the hands of— threats, right? ai getting in the hands of bad guys. it can do bad things— hands of bad guys. it can do bad things are — hands of bad guys. it can do bad things are bad people. just briefly, i want to things are bad people. just briefly, i want to get _ things are bad people. just briefly, i want to get a _ things are bad people. just briefly, i want to get a quick _ things are bad people. just briefly, i want to get a quick reaction - things are bad people. just briefly, i want to get a quick reaction from | i want to get a quick reaction from what branch about energy. renewables uk said there was one project in the uk said there was one project in the uk in 2022 with two turbines, and it sounds like all that progress might be thrown away. that sounds like all that progress might be thrown away.— sounds like all that progress might be thrown awa . ., , ., , ., ' ::f be thrown away. that is onshore. 9096 of --eole be thrown away. that is onshore. 9096 of people want — be thrown away. that is onshore. 9096 of people want onshore _ be thrown away. that is onshore. 9096 of people want onshore wind, - of people want onshore wind, particularly if it can drive down energy— particularly if it can drive down energy costs. we have products where if people _ energy costs. we have products where if people live near a turbine, if it's windy— if people live near a turbine, if it's windy they get cheaper energy. that's _ it's windy they get cheaper energy. that's the — it's windy they get cheaper energy. that's the way we need to reimagine energy— that's the way we need to reimagine energy so— that's the way we need to reimagine energy so people benefit from this energy— energy so people benefit from this energy revolution and right now we have to _ energy revolution and right now we have to get on with it because it will drive — have to get on with it because it will drive prices down for homes and businesses. — will drive prices down for homes and businesses, and the uk has a chance to be _ businesses, and the uk has a chance to be creating this entirely new industry — to be creating this entirely new industry. it's notjust ai but clean energy— industry. it's notjust ai but clean energy will— industry. it's notjust ai but clean energy will be huge.— energy will be huge. let's talk about food _

energy will be huge. let's talk about food prices _ energy will be huge. let's talk| about food prices because that energy will be huge. let's talk i about food prices because that is such a part —— big bout of inflation. this week we were talking to cindy mccain, here you will know having been married to the late politician john mccain was a huge politician for many years in the us but she is now the new boss of the united nations world food programme and we were able to speak to her from nairobi a few days ago. let's start with climate change affecting the entire world. and so that's number one. conflict has increased. the cost of food, as you just mentioned, has has increased. mentioned, has increased. and now with the possibility of the black sea grain initiative not continuing, this compounds everything. the market, the food prices go up. of course, we need fertiliser to come out. it's made the world a very dangerous place with regards to food security.

so we're asking everybody in the world to please take a look at this and please support us because people are going to starve to death if we don't. even in a wealthy country like the uk, people are really struggling with the cost of basics. can you see a time when food prices around the world might come down? can you see a time when food prices around the world might come down? well, certainly. if if the ukrainian situation levels out and the conflict stops is one way to help the prices come down. and also, you know, other regions being able to produce differently or produce more of what they're doing. but most importantly, the thing is, is that we have to make sure that we as a world work together to make sure that people can be fed. but here there's been some evidence of companies, big companies, making profits more than they really require. have you seen evidence of profiteering? i have not witnessed that. i'm happy to say i've not witnessed that. but i do understand the urgency.

and i do understand the people in the uk, the food insecurity is hitting them personally because they can't find the things in the markets that they used to find, or if they do find them, the price is doubled from what it was. so this is all a result of a cascading effect that has occurred not only with ukraine but around the world. climate change again, cost, of course, and of course, conflict. do you think we might have to just get used to not eating some kind of foods because of climate change? oh, gosh, it depends on the region. you know, i mean, i've heard that there's a shortage of fruits and vegetables around the world. lettuce especially, as you mentioned, milk. because of the prices and because of the lack of fertiliser, we're going to see crop yields at our planet, probably not yielding as much as they did last year because of the fertiliser issue.

but maybe some of the answers are more radical. some people suggest we should eat insects rather than meat. should we be open to that? i think we should be open to everything. i really do. i think things are going to change a little bit. and i think food waste has to be considered in this as well, because food waste is an enormous problem globally. do you think ukrainian farmers will be able to bring a harvest in this year? i think it's going to be difficult. i know that there are some farms that are still operating, but you have to remember a large majority of the land, where the crops were grown before, are now mined. with landmines. the equipment that they use to work, the farms are mined. this is a tragic situation. and if the conflict were to end today, we'd be years being able to clear the land and clear the properties to make sure that it was safe to plant and safe to put livestock on. what about moscow renewing the grain deal?

now, that's been a vital way of making sure supplies people desperately need still get out of ukraine. must russia renew it? yes, they must renew the deal. we can't possibly be able to feed the region, let alone the world, unless they do it. you know, as you know, ukraine used to be pretty much the breadbasket of europe, and now that's not happening. and we need to get the grain out because it's affecting other countries. and now what we're doing at wfp is sourcing our grains that we give out from other sources, other possibilities, other availabilities around the world. but the cost has gone up. so we are not able to feed as many people as we could because of the cost. and what would you say to other world leaders to help make that happen? and what are the consequences if it doesn't? every world leader should take a look at this.

this is something that we need to stop so that we can go back to being able to feed people. and making sure that they're secure and they have not only their food, their water, but their families are fed and they're able to feed themselves. she paints a bleak picture of security in our food chains, do you agree with her?— security in our food chains, do you agree with her? yes, entirely. our food system _ agree with her? yes, entirely. our food system generally _ agree with her? yes, entirely. our food system generally isn't - agree with her? yes, entirely. our. food system generally isn't working. she mentions the cost of nitrites, one of the government had a more joined up approach about investing in aggro tech, we would see the cost of nitrates dropping for farmers because they wouldn't need you so much and investing in things like regenerative farming. she also talked about the profiteering of big food companies. the major category they are profiteering from is

ultra—processed foods. we know, lots of studies have pointed to those causing cancer, weight gain, cardiovascular disease, all sorts of things and premature death. that is costing the economy about £54 billion, equivalent to how much we spend on education. if we can look at the ultra—processed foods. we know, lots of studies have pointed to those causing cancer, weight gain, cardiovascular disease, all sorts of things and premature death. that is costing the economy about £54 billion, equivalent to how much we spend on education. if we can look at ultra processed foods like smoking, the marketing, they are addicting stuff, these foods. from our addicting stuff, these foods. from your knowledge — addicting stuff, these foods. from your knowledge of _ addicting stuff, these foods. from your knowledge of the _ addicting stuff, these foods. from your knowledge of the food industry, your knowledge of the food industry, you sound like you are convinced it is happening. you sound like you are convinced it is happening-— you sound like you are convinced it is happening. let's look at it. when boris is happening. let's look at it. when ltoris johnson _ is happening. let's look at it. when boris johnson came _ is happening. let's look at it. when boris johnson came up _ is happening. let's look at it. when boris johnson came up with - is happening. let's look at it. when boris johnson came up with some i borisjohnson came up with some really good ideas coming out of the food report that henry dimbleby did, one included banning the marketing of these foods which we know to be addictive. there needs to be way more studies done on how they affect ill health. but then that was suddenly, there was a u—turn overnight. money is taken between

food companies to scientists to doctors to ministers, so we need to stop those links between the food industry just like we stop those links between the food industryjust like we did with the smoking and tobacco industry. ii. is smoking and tobacco industry. if, is this one of — smoking and tobacco industry. if, is this one of those _ smoking and tobacco industry. if, is this one of those problems of food inflation that governments around the world, there's not much they can do? �* , ., , , the world, there's not much they can do? �*, ., , «a, the world, there's not much they can do? �*, ., , ~'., ., do? it's not 'ust us as we know and there are do? it's notjust us as we know and there are international— do? it's notjust us as we know and there are international factors - do? it's notjust us as we know and there are international factors at i there are international factors at play in _ there are international factors at play in terms of driving up inflation _ play in terms of driving up inflation. all economies were under pressure _ inflation. all economies were under pressure coming out of the pandemic, then the _ pressure coming out of the pandemic, then the ukraine crisis is a knock-on— then the ukraine crisis is a knock—on in terms of inflation here. we have _ knock—on in terms of inflation here. we have seen some countries like france _ we have seen some countries like france talking about putting a cap on food _ france talking about putting a cap on food prices. i think it would be difficult _ on food prices. i think it would be difficult to — on food prices. i think it would be difficult to see that happening here i’ilht difficult to see that happening here right now. — difficult to see that happening here right now, it's much more likely for the government to want to see whether— the government to want to see whether the supermarket and industry suggestions that prices will start coming — suggestions that prices will start coming down do happen before they make _ coming down do happen before they make any— coming down do happen before they make any decision. but ultimately people _ make any decision. but ultimately people are struggling with the cost of living _ people are struggling with the cost of living still, despite the government support on energy prices in particular, and i think

ultimately underneath it all, there is a lack— ultimately underneath it all, there is a lack of— ultimately underneath it all, there is a lack of resilience in household budgets _ is a lack of resilience in household budgets off the back of ten years of austerity _ budgets off the back of ten years of austerity and i think it will take quite _ austerity and i think it will take quite substantial falls in food prices — quite substantial falls in food prices for people to feel money in their— prices for people to feel money in their pockets again. all prices for people to feel money in their pockets again.— their pockets again. all three of ou, their pockets again. all three of you. thank _ their pockets again. all three of you. thank you _ their pockets again. all three of you, thank you for _ their pockets again. all three of you, thank you for now. - their pockets again. all three of you, thank you for now. at - their pockets again. all three of you, thank you for now. at the l their pockets again. all three of. you, thank you for now. at the end of the programme, thomasina, i want to know if you have any recipes for insects! a challenge for you there. now, yesterday keir starmer, after his success in the council elections we talked about last week, made a dramatic sounding promise — that the changes to the party compared to tony blair would be "on steroids". with the level of cynicism in our politics, the let down, the drifting away, the disconnect, our collapse in scotland, the loss of the red wall, this task is going to be ongoing, difficult and enormous. it is if you like clause four on steroids. blair on steroids? what's going on? one of his team, the shadow business secretary,

johnny reynolds is back with us. morning. what does that mean? klaus four on steroids. forthe what does that mean? klaus four on steroids. for the political nerds thatis steroids. for the political nerds that is when labour dropped their commitment to nationalising everything. if you have a look at the incoming scale of challenge an incoming labour government would have it's bigger than ever. we've got public services where let's be frank, are there any public services today working better than 13 years ago when the conservatives came to power? no. the scale of what we've got to do is to have the policy platform and the courage to meet that. that's what clause four was about, i think that's what keir starmer has done so far. there's more to do but keir starmer mayor is making clear, don't underestimate our challenge and our determination to meet it. �* ., ., . ., to meet it. bigger than after world war ii? if to meet it. bigger than after world war ii? if you— to meet it. bigger than after world war ii? if you look _ to meet it. bigger than after world war ii? if you look at _ to meet it. bigger than after world war ii? if you look at the _ war ii? if you look at the challenges, _ war ii? if you look at the challenges, yes, - war ii? if you look at the challenges, yes, i'm - war ii? if you look at the challenges, yes, i'm not| war ii? if you look at the - challenges, yes, i'm not saying they're not significant but look at they're not significant but look at the state of the public realm, look at the state of the economy, the

challenges that come from an ageing population, technological disruption, ai, these are significant issues that they've come at a time where the rest of the world is absolutely hungry for the jobs of the future, the investments we are seeing in the us, our policy platform is the equivalent to that. it's that level of ambition and we don't see that from the government. i listen to government ministers and all i hear is we are going to do more of the same, more of what we've done for the last 13 years and it hasn't worked. it’s done for the last 13 years and it hasn't worked.— hasn't worked. it's interesting, labour backers _ hasn't worked. it's interesting, labour backers and _ hasn't worked. it's interesting, labour backers and some - hasn't worked. it's interesting, labour backers and some of i hasn't worked. it's interesting, | labour backers and some of our viewers might be wondering about backing labour will want to know that keir starmer is someone they can really trust and when he won the leadership he said he'd make the case for moral socialism. yesterday he said, i don't care if i sound like a conservative. what are people meant to make of that? it sounds like someone saying almost anything in order to be elected. iltrui’hat like someone saying almost anything in order to be elected.— in order to be elected. what he was askin: is in order to be elected. what he was asking is what _ in order to be elected. what he was asking is what is _ in order to be elected. what he was asking is what is it _ in order to be elected. what he was asking is what is it the _ asking is what is it the conservative party actually conserves because it's not the nhs, not the bbc, not our waterways full

of filthy sewage, not the nation, it's not family life and he was pointing out that to meet the things and celebrate the things and defend the things that make this country great, it's the labour agenda that will do that and on keir starmer personally i voted for keir starmer, i wanted someone to be prime minister and do it for the right reasons, do public service for the right reasons and he embodies that and that hasn't changed and taking the statement and values he had in the statement and values he had in the leadership contest but recognising we've had things like the pandemic and it's affected how much money there is to spend on public services, that sensible approach to his ambitions should be celebrated, we have to recognise the environment we are in. has celebrated, we have to recognise the environment we are in.— environment we are in. has he been on a bit of — environment we are in. has he been on a bit of a — environment we are in. has he been on a bit of a journey, _ environment we are in. has he been on a bit of a journey, i'm _ environment we are in. has he been on a bit of ajourney, i'm not- on a bit of a journey, i'm not saying if it's right or wrong, but he has moved? i saying if it's right or wrong, but he has moved?— he has moved? i voted for keir starmer and — he has moved? i voted for keir starmer and he's _ he has moved? i voted for keir starmer and he's fulfilled i starmer and he's fulfilled everything i wanted to see for him whether i was in his team or not but simply to recognise that there will

be limitations of course on any incoming labour government, there will be limited funds, priorities we have to make. that's what he's got to do as we approach the election and the manifesto we put forward but it's the same keir starmer i supported and i celebrate that. would you care if someone said, you know what, listening to him on a sunday morning, he sounds a bit like a tory? it’s sunday morning, he sounds a bit like a to ? �* , . , ., sunday morning, he sounds a bit like ato?. , ., a tory? it's incumbent on any olitical a tory? it's incumbent on any political party _ a tory? it's incumbent on any political party that _ a tory? it's incumbent on any political party that had - a tory? it's incumbent on any political party that had a i a tory? it's incumbent on any i political party that had a defeat as significant as 2019 to look at itself and say we have to attract some voters back who didn't vote for us last time. i want people who voted conservative last time to look again at the labour party and their own priorities and say yes, it's labour who represent that. it doesn't mean we don't embody what i think is a classic labour offer, that's fundamentally what keir starmer is about, a stronger set of employment rights, better industrial policy, making the economy work for working people, rebuilding the nhs, opportunity for all, he's been clear on his ambitions but we'll attract a wider coalition of support. you mention flexible _ wider coalition of support. you mention flexible working and industrial relations. the government has passed laws that says it will make flexible working more easily.

what would you different?- what would you different? there's been speculation _ what would you different? there's been speculation about _ what would you different? there's been speculation about labour's i been speculation about labour's policy is, what you see in the papers is not the final policy statement we make in the manifesto, it's part of our process, there will be amendments, but i look at our economy today and i want jobs for people, goodjobs, goodjobs you economy today and i want jobs for people, good jobs, good jobs you can build a family life around where you can own your own home, go on holiday, fundamentally you can see your own children and have some family life and recently over the last few years that balance hasn't been struck correctly what we proposed... been struck correctly what we proposed- - -— been struck correctly what we --roosed... ,, ., , ., ~ proposed... should flexible working to be the default _ proposed... should flexible working to be the default form _ proposed... should flexible working to be the default form day - proposed... should flexible working to be the default form day one? i proposed... should flexible working to be the default form day one? we are to be the default form day one? - are moving the direction that the labour party kit, that's what workers are demanding. —— the direction of the labour market, that's what workers are demanding. a degree of flexibility is what people expect. iflan degree of flexibility is what people exect. . , ., degree of flexibility is what people exect. ., i. degree of flexibility is what people exect. ., a, ., degree of flexibility is what people exect. ., , degree of flexibility is what people exect. ., ., , expect. can you say to bosses you won't tell them _ expect. can you say to bosses you won't tell them what _ expect. can you say to bosses you won't tell them what to _ expect. can you say to bosses you won't tell them what to do - expect. can you say to bosses you | won't tell them what to do because you say there could be a mandatory approach. are you going to tell bosses they have to offer flexible

working? to bosses they have to offer flexible workin: ? ., ., ,, , bosses they have to offer flexible workin. ? ., ., ,, , , ., , working? to address the very serious economic problems _ working? to address the very serious economic problems this _ working? to address the very serious economic problems this country i working? to address the very serious economic problems this country has i economic problems this country has means working in partnership with business, i don't want to preach to business, i don't want to preach to business or tell them what specifically applies to their workplace but we will work with them and i think people look at things at the minute and say you need jobs you can have a life around and the best employers recognise that, they use that to attract talent and will work with them to support that agenda. let's talk about something else mooted as being on your agenda for the next general election, can you confirm labour has plans to give eu citizens who have settled here the right to vote in general elections? this is speculation on this, it's part of our manifesto process. we want to strengthen our democracy, if people make a contribution and live here there's an argument for having them in our process but we'll set that out in detail, it's part of how we make policy, a democratic process involving the breadth of the labour movement but if people are making a contribution to the uk let's celebrate that. it

contribution to the uk let's celebrate that.— contribution to the uk let's celebrate that. , ., , , ., celebrate that. it sounds as if you think that should _ celebrate that. it sounds as if you think that should be _ celebrate that. it sounds as if you think that should be the - celebrate that. it sounds as if you think that should be the case. i celebrate that. it sounds as if you i think that should be the case. there will be different _ think that should be the case. there will be different ways, _ think that should be the case. ill” will be different ways, different specific measures to do that but what we seen from this government measures to try and discourage people participating in the democracy we have. we want to encourage more people to be involved. i5 encourage more people to be involved. , , , encourage more people to be involved. , , ., involved. is it possible you would consider extending _ involved. is it possible you would consider extending that - involved. is it possible you would consider extending that right i involved. is it possible you would consider extending that right as i consider extending that right as part of your process, deliberating what to do, to all migrants who settled here, notjust in you citizens? settled here, not 'ust in you citizens? . �* , settled here, not 'ust in you citizens? . v . settled here, not 'ust in you cannot settled here, not 'ust in you citizens? ., �*, ., ,, . . , ., citizens? that's a specific question and we'll have _ citizens? that's a specific question and we'll have to _ citizens? that's a specific question and we'll have to go _ citizens? that's a specific question and we'll have to go through i citizens? that's a specific question i and we'll have to go through process but it's about strengthening democracy and involving as many people as possible. they are our ambitions, we'll get to the detail in the manifesto. i ambitions, we'll get to the detail in the manifesto.— in the manifesto. i want to ask about something _ in the manifesto. i want to ask about something else - in the manifesto. i want to ask about something else that's i in the manifesto. i want to ask- about something else that's happened in the labour party this week. it happens from time to time in westminster and all parties have struggled to deal with these things but this week there's been a shadow frontbencher who has been accused of sexual assault by another labour mp. should they be suspended while an investigation takes place? iltrui’eilii. investigation takes place? well, look, investigation takes place? well, look. there's — investigation takes place? well, look, there's always _ investigation takes place? well, look, there's always more i investigation takes place? well, look, there's always more to - investigation takes place? well, look, there's always more to do| investigation takes place? well, i look, there's always more to do on this. we have changed our procedures in the labour party. there is an

independent process now. it's free of any political interference or political factors that are part of that. i don't have the specifics of this case, so i can't comment on them particularly, but usually where a complaint were to be made there would be a process of suspension while an investigation was taking place but because it's independent i wouldn't know the details of that. but your view generally is that should happen?— but your view generally is that should ha en? ~ ., _, , ., .,, should happen? where a complaint has been made you — should happen? where a complaint has been made you would _ should happen? where a complaint has been made you would usually _ should happen? where a complaint has been made you would usually expect i been made you would usually expect the independent process to action that, you wouldn't know, it's a frontbencher, what's being involved but it would usually involve a temporary suspension. judo but it would usually involve a temporary suspension. judy reynolds, . reat temporary suspension. judy reynolds, ureat to temporary suspension. judy reynolds, great to have — temporary suspension. judy reynolds, great to have you _ temporary suspension. judy reynolds, great to have you with _ temporary suspension. judy reynolds, great to have you with us, _ temporary suspension. judy reynolds, great to have you with us, thanks - great to have you with us, thanks for coming in and taking questions on such a range of subjects, thank you very much indeed. time's zoomed by and it's nearly ten. remember we started this morning asking how long would the tricky times for the economy last. here's what the energy secretary grant shapps had to say. we are absolutely committed to that set of five pledges, half inflation, the bank have indicated that this is

happening a bit slower than they would have liked, they are responsible for interest rates but they are still saying it's going to happen. we want to grow the economy and against what the bank and office of budget response ability have said we thought we'd be into a recession, in fact the economy is growing albeit slowly.— albeit slowly. and my trio of exerts albeit slowly. and my trio of exnerts is — albeit slowly. and my trio of experts is still _ albeit slowly. and my trio of experts is still with - albeit slowly. and my trio of experts is still with me, - albeit slowly. and my trio of - experts is still with me, thomasina miers, greg jackson from octopus energy and pippa crerar, the political editor of the guardian. pippa, there clearly have been nerves in and around government this week but do you think there's something serious? is this the start of something serious unfolding for rishi sunak, do you think? i of something serious unfolding for rishi sunak, do you think?- rishi sunak, do you think? i don't think it's a — rishi sunak, do you think? i don't think it's a start _ rishi sunak, do you think? i don't think it's a start i _ rishi sunak, do you think? i don't think it's a start i think _ rishi sunak, do you think? i don't think it's a start i think it's - rishi sunak, do you think? i don't think it's a start i think it's a - think it's a start i think it's a continuation and there is this the start of something serious unfolding for rishi sunak, do you think? i don't think it's a start i think it's a continuation and there's an opportunity for it to bubble into the public because of the election results and internal rows within the conservative party but from the off he's had an uphill struggle not least because of the state of the party when he took it over post borisjohnson and liz party when he took it over post boris johnson and liz truss party when he took it over post borisjohnson and liz truss and the drama is there but also the state of the economy and that's what it comes

down to ultimately. the cost of living crisis people are struggling with. if the conservatives can manage to get on top of inflation and handle the economy in such a way that people feel they are slightly better off at the beginning and end of this than they were at the beginning then they have a chance at the next election but that looks really tough to do given the broader picture and the fact that rishi sunak doesn't have the direct mandate a conservative party members makes that even harder to try and get his team on board and i've been struck over the last few days talking to tory mps how despondent they are really about their chances running up to the next election and critically how they don't have the fire of rebellion in their bellies. they think they are going to limp on in the election and many think it will be a fatal complete. many think it will be a fatal complete-— many think it will be a fatal comlete. , ., ., complete. somebody, a former minister, described _ complete. somebody, a former minister, described it _ complete. somebody, a former minister, described it to - complete. somebody, a former minister, described it to me - complete. somebody, a former minister, described it to me as| complete. somebody, a former. minister, described it to me as a depressive apathy, there wasn't much they could do about it but let's see. there was no despondency in liverpool last night and at the beginning of the programme i promised you that we would hear from

our own special reporter who was there behind the scenes. yes, catherine tate. here's her report. i've just given the scores for the uk to sweden. look at this, this is absolutely incredible. the atmosphere is fantastic. we're just waiting to hear who wins. this is what you need to know about the eurovision. it was absolutely phenomenal. what went on backstage was like a ballet, because the crew were incredible, every act was phenomenal, all the presenters were absolutely tremendous. this man has been waiting for a photo. who is this? this is laura kuenssberg, sunday with laura kuenssberg. laura kuenssberg! i know her, she's sky sports. can you take a picture? you are so famous in- sweden, you don't know. i don't know. you don't know! i didn't know i was famous in sweden. sweden is finding out if they've won. and if they get more than 168

points, they've won. 200... yes, sweden have won! sweden! i've loved being your correspondent. happy sunday, everyone! laughter morias chaos of eurovision and glorious chaos of catherine tate, she's got a big future in showbiz reporting and hopefully she'll come into the studio soon. thomasina, were you watching eurovision? tim; were you watching eurovision? tiny sni ets were you watching eurovision? t “i1: snippets amongst other were you watching eurovision? t “u; snippets amongst other things, so yeah, little bits for site and did you like what you saw? i mean, music, food, it's the stuff of life, it's what we should all be doing more off and dancing and eating. greg, did you catch any of it? my artner greg, did you catch any of it? my partner was partying on the streets of liverpool last night and i got special— of liverpool last night and i got special reports on whatsapp, it certainly — special reports on whatsapp, it certainly is a party city.- certainly is a party city. pippa, where you _ certainly is a party city. pippa, where you watching? - certainly is a party city. pippa, where you watching? we - certainly is a party city. pippa, | where you watching? we were, certainly is a party city. pippa, - where you watching? we were, we had

about eiuht where you watching? we were, we had about eight children _ where you watching? we were, we had about eight children crowded _ where you watching? we were, we had about eight children crowded around i about eight children crowded around the telly— about eight children crowded around the telly so — about eight children crowded around the telly so it — about eight children crowded around the telly so it was _ about eight children crowded around the telly so it was chaotic _ about eight children crowded around the telly so it was chaotic at - about eight children crowded around the telly so it was chaotic at our - the telly so it was chaotic at our place _ the telly so it was chaotic at our place but — the telly so it was chaotic at our place but i — the telly so it was chaotic at our place but i managed _ the telly so it was chaotic at our place but i managed to- the telly so it was chaotic at our place but i managed to catch i the telly so it was chaotic at our i place but i managed to catch some the telly so it was chaotic at our - place but i managed to catch some of it, it place but i managed to catch some of it. it was _ place but i managed to catch some of it. it was fun— place but i managed to catch some of it. it was funfor— place but i managed to catch some of it, it was fun for site _ place but i managed to catch some of it, it was fun for site it _ place but i managed to catch some of it, it was fun for site it might - it, it was fun for site it might sound — it, it was fun for site it might sound pompous— it, it was fun for site it might sound pompous but- it, it was fun for site it might sound pompous but there's i it, it was fun for site it might - sound pompous but there's been a lot of chat— sound pompous but there's been a lot of chat and _ sound pompous but there's been a lot of chat and wise — sound pompous but there's been a lot of chat and wise commentary- sound pompous but there's been a lot of chat and wise commentary saying l of chat and wise commentary saying eurovision— of chat and wise commentary saying eurovision might _ of chat and wise commentary saying eurovision might be _ of chat and wise commentary saying eurovision might be something - of chat and wise commentary saying i eurovision might be something that's very good _ eurovision might be something that's very good for— eurovision might be something that's very good for the _ eurovision might be something that's very good for the morale _ eurovision might be something that's very good for the morale of— eurovision might be something that's very good for the morale of the - very good for the morale of the country — very good for the morale of the count . , ., ., , ., ., ., country. everyone has had a hard time. what do you reckon? - country. everyone has had a hard i time. what do you reckon? anything that rives time. what do you reckon? anything that gives there's _ time. what do you reckon? anything that gives there's hope _ time. what do you reckon? anything that gives there's hope and - time. what do you reckon? anything that gives there's hope and light - that gives there's hope and light and joy— that gives there's hope and light and joy is— that gives there's hope and light and joy is a _ that gives there's hope and light and joy is a good _ that gives there's hope and light and joy is a good thing _ that gives there's hope and light and joy is a good thing and - that gives there's hope and light and joy is a good thing and from| that gives there's hope and light. and joy is a good thing and from a personal— and joy is a good thing and from a personal perspective _ and joy is a good thing and from a personal perspective as _ and joy is a good thing and from a| personal perspective as somebody and joy is a good thing and from a - personal perspective as somebody who spends _ personal perspective as somebody who spends far— personal perspective as somebody who spends far too — personal perspective as somebody who spends far too long _ personal perspective as somebody who spends far too long on _ personal perspective as somebody who spends far too long on twitter, - spends far too long on twitter, going _ spends far too long on twitter, going through _ spends far too long on twitter, going through twitter- spends far too long on twitter, going through twitter last - spends far too long on twitter, | going through twitter last night spends far too long on twitter, - going through twitter last night and have it _ going through twitter last night and have it all_ going through twitter last night and have it all he — going through twitter last night and have it all be about _ going through twitter last night and have it all be about outfits - going through twitter last night and have it all be about outfits and - have it all be about outfits and songs — have it all be about outfits and songs and _ have it all be about outfits and songs and funny _ have it all be about outfits and songs and funny humour - have it all be about outfits and songs and funny humour and l have it all be about outfits and i songs and funny humour and the memes. — songs and funny humour and the memes. so— songs and funny humour and the memes. so nruch— songs and funny humour and the memes, so much better- songs and funny humour and the memes, so much better than - songs and funny humour and the j memes, so much better than my songs and funny humour and the - memes, so much better than my normal doom _ memes, so much better than my normal doom strolling _ memes, so much better than my normal doom strolling through _ memes, so much better than my normal doom strolling through the _ memes, so much better than my normal doom strolling through the political- doom strolling through the political landscape — doom strolling through the political landscae. ., .,, ., doom strolling through the political landscae. ., ., landscape. thomasina, can you give us a recipe — landscape. thomasina, can you give us a recipe for _ landscape. thomasina, can you give us a recipe for insects? _ landscape. thomasina, can you give us a recipe for insects? well, - landscape. thomasina, can you give us a recipe for insects? well, we i us a recipe for insects? well, we used to have _ us a recipe for insects? well, we used to have a _ us a recipe for insects? well, we used to have a direct _ us a recipe for insects? well, we used to have a direct delicious i used to have a direct delicious cricket flower chocolate brownie so if you want to eat more vegetarian, show —— put some cricket flour into your cooking. show -- put some cricket flour into your cooking-—

your cooking. there is a challenge for us today. _ your cooking. there is a challenge for us today, find _ your cooking. there is a challenge for us today, find cricket - your cooking. there is a challenge for us today, find cricket flour - your cooking. there is a challenge for us today, find cricket flour and get in the kitchen. thank you for joining us, thomasina, greg and pippa and all of our other guests. most of us perhaps have enjoyed the songs, sequence and screaming crowds of eurovision but when it comes to the country making an event, the picture is a lot less fun. politicians might not really want to admit it but the way the economy is looking, things might still feel testing for some time to come. of course that's in part about the hangover from the pandemic and the cost of the war in ukraine, but most mps will tell you privately at least for a long time the uk has struggled to find a good recipe for growth and whatever side you were on the disruption and dramas around the brexit process didn't help. so the contest for your vote next time will begin large parts about who can get the economy to turn a convincing corner. grant shapps sounded relatively confident that the government will achieve this, relatively, so you can catch up with

anything you missed on iplayer later, especially the interview with emad mostaque, i would highly recommend watching that closely. thanks for your company and i look forward to seeing you back here, same time, same place, next week.

live from london. this is bbc news. ukraine's president zelensky is visiting berlin as germany pledges its largest weapons package for kyiv. you have won the eurovision song contest 2023. the swedish act, loreen, wins the eurovision song contest — becomimg the first woman to triumph twice. the people of turkey are voting in one of the most pivotal elections in the country's modern history hello and welcome. for the first time since russia's invasion of ukraine, volodymyr zelensky — the president of ukraine —

is visiting germany.